neurotic Iraqi wife
January 05, 2009
The 21st Century Murderers...
I just found out about the death of a school friend of mine in Gaza. This post is for everyone who thinks the Gaza massacre is justifiable. This is for everyone who believes human life, especially the Arab human life is cheap. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP.
NO, human life is NOT cheap. The Gazans have every right to live. Every right to live just like you and me. Had the situation been reversed and it was Israelis that were bombarded with rockets, with images of Israeli childrens’ brains gutted out on the TV, WILL YOU THINK THE SAME??? Will you fucking say that this war is fucking justified??? I don’t think so. Every human life is as valuable as the other. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Be it an Arab, a Muslim, a Christian A Jew. Be it Palestinian, be it Iraqi, be it Israeli. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Millions of people all over the world have been protesting the massacres in Gaza. Are all these people WRONG? They have gone out of their way, in blistery cold weather to make their voices heard, are these people wrong??? You, whoever you are, YOU, yes YOU who think all people in Gaza are Hamas, should go there and see who is it being killed, Who is it being slaughtered. Who is it being murdered!!!
The images I see day in day out is not part of a sci fi movie. Oh no. I wish it was. I swear to god I wish it was just a movie. I wish the brains that was splattered on that hospital bed was just some playdo stuck on a dummy’s head for special effects. BUT GOD DAMN IT IT ISNT. OK!!! IT ISNT.
Im not saying Hamas is right. Im not a supporter of Hamas or any organization that deals with violence. But at the same time THIS SHOULD STOP. IT SHOULD STOP NOW. What did my school friend do? What was his fault? Why did he die? He died as a result of this inhumane war. BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.
I don’t give a damn why this war started in the first place. Nothing, nothing whatsoever justifies kids dying. NOTHING. This post is for every single ignorant person who supports Israel’s current actions. And then you sit and wonder why do people hate us? Why do people dislike us. This is exactly why. You sit and wonder why people want to kill us? All these kids, the kids that have been orphaned, the kids who woke up having no family around will grow up thinking of ways to take revenge. And you wonder why suicide bombers do what they do in your part of the world. Bloody hell even people in other countries are asking to go fight in Gaza...This is exactly what happens as a result of unjustifiable violence.
The images that the Arab world are watching on their TV will move every single person to do something. I doubt you see what we are watching, so stop wondering why this hatred. Why this anger.
Im sorry, but violence can only give birth to more hatred. More violence. More innocent lives gone. Gone just like that. Even my belief in Obama has disappeared. I cant believe he continued playing god damn golf, so calmly, when the rest of the world was boiling with anger. When women and children were being bombarded and getting killed. Yeah I know he isn’t officially the president yet. But why didn’t he atleast comment. Atleast condemn the actions. Ok forget condemning, why didn’t he say he atleast “feels bad” with whats going on in Gaza???????But no, Scoring that hole was by far more important.
Shame on you. Shame on everyone who thinks this is right. Everyone who thinks Israel or any country can do this and get away with it. Whats funny is I know that Israel will get away with it. Like they always do. They have proved to be as bad as all these extremists who don’t believe in human life. Who don’t believe in the right of others to live. They might as well kill us all and have the world to themselves. Right now, to me they are as bad as Hamas as bad as Muqtada, as bad as Al Qaeda.
They say this is to protect them from further aggression from Hamas. Alas, that’s what I used to hear in Baghdad. Muqtada firing mortars and rockets to protect Iraqis from Americans, when in reality nearly a million Iraqis were killed in the war. Al Qaeda said and did the same. They wanted to get the so called occupier out, yet they bombed street markets, and schools. Yeah to me, theyre all the same. ALL are MURDERERS! The 21st Century Murderers!!!
NO, human life is NOT cheap. The Gazans have every right to live. Every right to live just like you and me. Had the situation been reversed and it was Israelis that were bombarded with rockets, with images of Israeli childrens’ brains gutted out on the TV, WILL YOU THINK THE SAME??? Will you fucking say that this war is fucking justified??? I don’t think so. Every human life is as valuable as the other. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Be it an Arab, a Muslim, a Christian A Jew. Be it Palestinian, be it Iraqi, be it Israeli. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Millions of people all over the world have been protesting the massacres in Gaza. Are all these people WRONG? They have gone out of their way, in blistery cold weather to make their voices heard, are these people wrong??? You, whoever you are, YOU, yes YOU who think all people in Gaza are Hamas, should go there and see who is it being killed, Who is it being slaughtered. Who is it being murdered!!!
The images I see day in day out is not part of a sci fi movie. Oh no. I wish it was. I swear to god I wish it was just a movie. I wish the brains that was splattered on that hospital bed was just some playdo stuck on a dummy’s head for special effects. BUT GOD DAMN IT IT ISNT. OK!!! IT ISNT.
Im not saying Hamas is right. Im not a supporter of Hamas or any organization that deals with violence. But at the same time THIS SHOULD STOP. IT SHOULD STOP NOW. What did my school friend do? What was his fault? Why did he die? He died as a result of this inhumane war. BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.
I don’t give a damn why this war started in the first place. Nothing, nothing whatsoever justifies kids dying. NOTHING. This post is for every single ignorant person who supports Israel’s current actions. And then you sit and wonder why do people hate us? Why do people dislike us. This is exactly why. You sit and wonder why people want to kill us? All these kids, the kids that have been orphaned, the kids who woke up having no family around will grow up thinking of ways to take revenge. And you wonder why suicide bombers do what they do in your part of the world. Bloody hell even people in other countries are asking to go fight in Gaza...This is exactly what happens as a result of unjustifiable violence.
The images that the Arab world are watching on their TV will move every single person to do something. I doubt you see what we are watching, so stop wondering why this hatred. Why this anger.
Im sorry, but violence can only give birth to more hatred. More violence. More innocent lives gone. Gone just like that. Even my belief in Obama has disappeared. I cant believe he continued playing god damn golf, so calmly, when the rest of the world was boiling with anger. When women and children were being bombarded and getting killed. Yeah I know he isn’t officially the president yet. But why didn’t he atleast comment. Atleast condemn the actions. Ok forget condemning, why didn’t he say he atleast “feels bad” with whats going on in Gaza???????But no, Scoring that hole was by far more important.
Shame on you. Shame on everyone who thinks this is right. Everyone who thinks Israel or any country can do this and get away with it. Whats funny is I know that Israel will get away with it. Like they always do. They have proved to be as bad as all these extremists who don’t believe in human life. Who don’t believe in the right of others to live. They might as well kill us all and have the world to themselves. Right now, to me they are as bad as Hamas as bad as Muqtada, as bad as Al Qaeda.
They say this is to protect them from further aggression from Hamas. Alas, that’s what I used to hear in Baghdad. Muqtada firing mortars and rockets to protect Iraqis from Americans, when in reality nearly a million Iraqis were killed in the war. Al Qaeda said and did the same. They wanted to get the so called occupier out, yet they bombed street markets, and schools. Yeah to me, theyre all the same. ALL are MURDERERS! The 21st Century Murderers!!!
86 Comments:
What do you want Israel to do Neurotica? Open their borders to the palestinians and let the murderers flood across and murder all their children and kill every last living jew? Would Israel then be justified in defending themselves? Should Israel pull out of the occupied territories and let them govern themselves? Oh wait...they already did that and the thanks they received for forcing their own citizens to give up their homes was what? Thousands of rockets and mortars fired indiscriminately at civilians. Every single time Israel has reached out with an olive branch and tried to extend the hand of piece, they have been rewarded with a new wave of violence aimed indiscriminately at civilians.
So what do you want Israel to do? Just sit back and take it? Just accept that every day they will have mortars and rockets fired at them and there is nothing they can do about it? What is the Neurotica solution to the situation? When you were in Baghdad and the terrorists were firing mortars at the Green Zone on a daily basis, did you want the police to stay in their stations and the Army to stay in their barracks? Or did you expect them to go out and find out who was doing it and kill them? Well guess what...we know who is doing it...Hamas...and they are the duly elected government of Gaza. They put their fighting positions in homes, apartment buildings, schools, and mosques. So does that mean Israel should give up? Should they stop fighting back because the people of Gaza have elected terrorists to represent them and welcome Hamas placing rocket launchers in schoolyards?
I guess it would just be easier if Israel would just accept being pushed into the sea and slaughtered wouldn't it? Wouldn't be easier for all of the Arabs if the Jews would just go away and let themselves be killed so that the Palestinians could live in their ethnically cleansed homeland? Is that what you want? I don't think so...so why such a one-sided view? Israel has stopped fighting many many times. They have given the Palestinians back mjor portions of the disputed lands. They have allowed elections and self government in those lands. Yet in every case, the response from the Palestinians has been violence. When does it stop? How does it stop? At what point does it become acceptable for Israel to defend themselves?
Would you be happier if Israel used a more "proportionate" response? If they just lined up 200 howitzers and fired them into Gaza every day without bothering to aim them, would that be acceptable to the Arab world? That is what Hamas does to Israel every day. Would it be ok with you if Israel just dropped a 1000 lb bomb on a random crowded Gaza street corner once every couple of days to simulate the suicide bombings inflicted upon Israel? Is that kind of response acceptable? Is that what you believe Israel should do? They have tried every peace gesture known to mankind...but Hamas keeps attacking. It takes two to have peace, but only one to fight. It doesn't matter how much Israel desires peace if Hamas does not. So how do you want Israel to respond? It is wonderful and idealistic to believe they should all just get along, but that is sheer fantasy. The fact is that the Palestinians have spent decades indoctrinating their children into a death cult that believes the highest act one can take is to die killing jews. How is Israel supposed to unilaterally impose peace on an entire population that has dedicated their entire life to killing jews and destroying Israel?
BTW, I am very sorry about your friend. My opinions above shouldn't be mistaken for not caring about the people of Gaza. I am saddened any time humans suffer...especially kids who have no choice in the matter. But on the other hand, decisions have consequences. The people of Gaza elected terrorists dedicated to war with Israel to represent them, and they are paying the price for that decision. The West Bank is represented by Fatah, which has mostly followed a path to peace since the death of Arafat...and look at what Israel has done there...they have largely left them alone and allowed them to live in peace. Amazing how that works.
But Iran's president believes Allah has chosen him to prepare the world for the coming of an Islamic 'savior' called the Mahdi.Does not all this have to happen for Mahdi to appear?
You divide the Arab world, rightly so. Camaraderie suspends sexuality. We all lust for enemies. We all reserve a plot with familiars. Triumphant fabrics and colors. Summarily transitional and suspect indecencies contained. Who committed this war on Secularism? Is the Earth a Roman Candle?
Every human life is as valuable as the other. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Be it an Arab, a Muslim, a Christian A Jew.
I agree. Unfortunately, just like many groups in Iraq, Hamas doesn't feel the same way.
I'm sorry about your friend. I lost friends I went to bootcamp and infantry training school with (and you probably can't imagine how close that bond is) in Lebanon in 1983. I know how much that hurts. There is no justice in this world except what we are willing to fight for and get for ourselves. If there is one piece of advice I can give you, its this: don't give in to the desire to replace justice with vengeance!
By the way, Neurotica... every Palestinian blogger I know of has been preaching hate and violence against the Jews (or "zionists" as they call them) for years. Every single one. How am I supposed to sympathize with people like that, when it seems they got exactly what they wanted? You say that the people in Gaza aren't all like Hamas, and that is undoubtedly true, but where are the voices of those in Gaza who DON'T want war? Why aren't they being heard? Why aren't they on the news? Why aren't they on they internet? You say those people are important... shouldn't they be front and center in the Arab world, then? I would make sure they were heard if I could, but I can't. I'm just another "zionist" and all I've ever gotten from Palestinians is abuse and ridicule when I challenge their warmongering.
PS-I got banned from a Palestinian blog just yesterday for asking a commenter who claimed to want peace why he was claiming that God was going to guarantee victory over the Jews. Should I believe either that blogger (who banned me) or the commenter have any interest at all in peace?
Where are the other Palestinian voices, Neurotica? I really want to know.
RRaed Jarrar, the famous Palestinian Peace Activist blogger, is very excited he won a lawsuit so soon after moving to the US, a country he has always dreamed about living in because he loves it so much:
http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/
You've read Raed's blog, Neurotica. Does Raed want peace? Is he a.... peace activist?
I think a caring heart "gives a damn" why this war is started. How do you fight wrong/evil if you don't? You're not saying "Hamas is right" but can you say they are WRONG?
*was started.
I wonder why countries didn't call for Hamas to stop launching rockets like they have Israel to stop bombing Gaza. Hmmmmmm.
I think it's because of a "dirty little secret" that's not really a secret. Arabians and their supporters are taught to hate the Jewish. So they do. Period.
Everything "Tex" said here reflects my own position.
You complain that President-elect Obama has not spoken with the words you'd prefer. To paraphrase, he said, '...if somebody was launching explosives into the room where my children are sleeping, yes, I'd go after them and force them to stop.'
Obama spoke as a parent, which is my own position.
Two important questions left hanging here:
1. What's a 'proportional response' to a wild missile coming out of Gaza into Israel?
2. Where are the voices of those people in Gaza who believe Hamas is WRONG, DEAD WRONG?
Hoping you'll respond here. Your readers have asked some important questions.
mimi
Hopefully the people of Gaza will learn that lesson, and think before they elect a terrorist organization that works for Iran, to power again.
With all due respect, Israel is totally justified and all the blame is on Hamas. Recognize Israel's right to exist and stop attacking them. End of story.
SAM NY
Tex,no I dont want Israel to be silent and do nothing. I repeat Im not a Hamas supporter. Never was and never will be. Yes every country has the right to defend itself. Im not arguing there. Yes Hamas were given many chances, but dont you see what this is doing? This Israeli offensive will further the peace talks. Make it something of the past. Target the militants, make it fair. Dont target the children. I hear you say but its Hamas that have placed their arms and militants next to civilians. I hear you, my question then will be, Hamas is a terrorist organization, should Israel fall to the bait? and kill civilians too?
PG, what do u expect them to do? Theyre watching their people die savagely, and u expect them to say hey, yeah our people are dying but we still love Israel? Im sorry but right now, they have every right to think what theyre thinking. As for Raed, I stopped reading his posts long time ago.
Yes Julie, I can say Hamas is WRONG!!!Who made Hamas in the first place Julie?How were they formed? Who helped them? As I said, Hamas, Israel govt, Bin Laden Muqtada are ALL criminals
Mimi, ok, Hamas fired missiles, Im not even going to argue that point, but did Israel try talks maybe first? Try to find some lee way before firing into innocent children. I know I know, Hamas, just like what the Al Qaeda used to do, go into civilian houses and fire from there. I know all that, but really now does it justify the killings of these innocent people. Answer me mimi, does it. Yes as a parent Obama spoke, what about the Palestinians? Arent they parents too? Or sorry maybe parents in Palestine are different than parents of Israel. Im not a parent but if I see my kids massacared like this, I will want revenge. Oh yes I will...
Madtom and Sam, what lessons will be learnt? Yes maybe Im living in la la land and dont agree with violence. Maybe you are right afterall. I believe Israelis and Palestinians should all live together in peace. I do believe that. I dont dig history books and say who started what and who gave what land. What happened happened. But no to aggression. Hamas is firing missiles, fine, fire missiles INTO HAMAS and not schools and ordinary homes.
Yes, I agree. It is the Palestininians own fault for their dying. That little Palestinian girl who died , it's all her fault that she decided to be born to such filty vermin. What was the matter with her, she should have known better and been born a W.A.S.P. American, then her life would have been worth far more. Then the "pro life" Christian Evangelicals would protest and scream for her "right to life". But she made the mistake of being born a Palestinian in Gaza and as such she is evil by design and should be slaughtered. Yeah, we know American made bombs and bullets only kill evil people.
Theyre watching their people die savagely, and u expect them to say hey, yeah our people are dying but we still love Israel? Im sorry but right now, they have every right to think what theyre thinking.
I'm not talking about right now. I'm talking about the last 3 or 4 years. It makes me absolutely SICK to see the same people I've been watching ridicule, threaten, harass and brag for the last several years, now pretending that they want peace. Who believes that? Not me. If there are other Palestinian voices out there, I would like to hear from them. maybe not now and maybe not next month, but sometime before the next ceasefire is agreed to... and then broken. As it stands now, I don't even know of any Palestinians who want peace. I don't even know if any exist. What else do I have to base my opinions on? I suppose I could stick my head in the sand like a lot of Western Leftists seem to do, and pretend I haven't seen Palestinians say all the things I've heard them say, but that's not my way. If people want war, why shouldn't they have it?
PS-Neurotica, I agree with everything you are saying. But I've never heard a Palestinian say anything remotely like that.
yeah only arabs can get away with murdering arabs.
What lessons? The same lessons Hisbollah learned in Lebanon. If you haven't noticed, after Hisbollahs great victory against Israel, they have not even thrown a stone in Israel's direction....Even today they don't come to the rescue of Gaza, or even try to open a new front. Last week they turned in their own rockets to the Lebanese army so no one could expect them to be fired. Opps, we would have helped, but out rockets are confiscated...too bad, maybe next time.
Neurotica said:
Target the militants, make it fair. Dont target the children. I hear you say but its Hamas that have placed their arms and militants next to civilians. I hear you, my question then will be, Hamas is a terrorist organization, should Israel fall to the bait? and kill civilians too?
Thats just it Neurotica. Israel has built a system by which they are calling the neighbors of the places they are about to attack and giving them notice that an attack is coming SPECIFICALLY to AVOID hurting civilians. They don't want to kill the civilians...they just want to hit the caches of weapons. Hamas has gone to great lengths to make it impossible for Israel to attack them without hurting civilians, and Israel is doing everything in their power to minimize the number of civilians they hurt or kill. I saw a statistic that said in the first week of air raids, Israel targeted 600 sites for bombing, and killed a total of 500 people...of which about 100 were civilians (the rest were Hamas). For those 100 people and their familes and friends, it is an abject and utter tragedy that they were killed. But what about what could have been? If Israel had just gone about indiscriminately firebombing those 600 targets (mostly in densely packed urban areas), do you really think the number of innocent deaths would be so low? If Israel were just dropping bombs with no effort to protect civilians, would they be killing far less than one civilian per bomb? As an American, it pains me to say it, but Israel has done a far better job with their aerial bombing than we did in Iraq when it comes to protecting civilians.
I understand what you are asking Neurotica, but the simple fact is that there is no easy way to defeat groups like Hamas. They have a compliant population willing to protect them. They have done everything they can to maximize the number of civilians who will be harmed if they are attacked. How is Israel supposed to attack them without any collateral damage? You are right to wish and long for a peaceful resolution...but that only works if both sides want it...and currently only one side does. There comes a time when Israel has no other option than to fight back...and that means some civilians will be killed...it is tragic...but they can't really do more than they already are to prevent that.
I wasn't kidding in my other post when I said that Hamas had created a death cult in Gaza. The population has been raised for decades to believe that killing jews or dying while trying is the highest form of honor to bestow on ones family. How can Israel deal rationally and logically with people who have quite literally been brainwashed from their very birth to hate Israel and jews in general and to believe death fighting Israel is to be celebrated? They have cartoons teaching their kids to celebrate death Neurotica! For decades, nearly every kid who grew up there has been told that killing jews is something to celebrate! At some point, when dealing with a population that is spoiling for a fight and wants to go to war...there is nothing left to do but give them what they want by going to war.
One other thing to consider Neurotica...you are viewing this conflict through the eyes of an Iraqi who saw what happened in Iraq. This conflict is not Iraq. The Palestinians are not the Iraqis of 2002. Iraqis for better or worse were not "spoiling for war" in 2002. They had war brought to them because of their dictator and have had to endure ever since. The Palestinians elected a leadership that espouses death to every jew and the destruction of Israel. They have been trained and brainwashed for decades to want to fight with Israel. So think about that and what it means for both sides of the conflict before you allow yourself to correlate the experience of Iraq to that of the Palestinians.
Hmmm, i don't remember to see you crying for the Darfur people ("UN officials estimate over 400,000 people have lost their lives..."). You are no different than the rest of the world, you feel the pain because it is your kind who is being killed.
"...They had war brought to them because of their dictator..."
Wrong! It was brought by lies of WMD and Terrorist training camps. Lies fed by selective intelligence from certain entities, to feed the warmongers need to make Daddy proud. So convenient to 'try' and re-write history to fit ones ideology. But nice to see the U.S. is still installing puppet leaders, hate to ruin the status quo.
Anon at 5:44pm,
My point was not to try to re-write anything. You have your opinion about why the war happened, and others are free to differ. The point of that statement was that the Iraqi people were not agitating for war with the US in 2002. The Iraq war did not occur because of anything the Iraqi people specifically did.
The situation was quite different in Gaza. There the people were free to elect whoever they wanted, and they chose the party whose philosophy and beliefs were the most virulent towards Israel of any of the possible choices as their leaders. Polls reflect nearly universal hatred of Israel and a belief in attacking killing jews as a matter of honor. The same can not be said of Iraq...which was the the point of my statement.
The solution is to arm the Islamists with enough modern weapons to make it a reasonably fair fight. Wait for them to do what so many of them desire and are commanded to do as 'good' Muslims, then wipe them off the face of the Earth as was done with their cousins, the Nazis. there is no gentle way to deal with Totalitarianism, but if we make it 'fair' by affording them the technology and power that comes from not being a society best found in the Middle Ages, the soft among us can better accept the inevitable--- destruction of the latest evil to prey upon humanity.
I always find it entertaining when an arrogant Iraqi gets on his or her high horse condemning the deaths of innocents. If your nation has an official holiday commemorating the existence of untold numbers of mass graves filled with your fellow citizens killed by your fellow citizens, perhaps you lack standing on such matters? So many Iraqis look to the good old days when the unruly among them were massacred en masse, but in such a way that it wasn't thrown in their faces so they could deny their own culpability as good little subjects of tyranny. It's good to be 'helpless' while atrocities surround you--- for some.
And by the way, any clear thinking person with any grasp of history knows that violence taken to its logical end has often been the ONLY solution to intractable problems. It's the halfway application of violence that leads to the continuation of the circumstances from which continuing violence is borne. Hamas must go. If they choose to hide behind 'innocents' so their unwitting allies can condemn the violence they themselves help provoke, then the blame for that tactic lies with those who cluelessly feed their purpose. If you truly wish peace for the people of Gaza, cheer for Israeli success and the end of Hamas and the ideology they represent.
it seems ppl commenting on this blog forget that there is no palestinian state, that what is known as palestine has been under occupation for half a century. ppl under occupation have the right under international law to resist. full stop. Hamas just like the PLO before them are NOT terrorist organizations.
Gaza has been under embargo and seige for more than a year now, that means closed borders, no fuel coming in, hence no electricity, no water, etc. plz stop to imagine life under these conditions. this war did not start yesterday. it will not end until a plaestinian state has been established.
Anon,
How convenient that you mention that the US lied about WMD. If I recall there were several countries in the UN who also believed there were WMD's. When anything goes wrong in the world "especially in the Arab world" you want to blame the Americans, and the rest of the world wonders why Americans think your people are whining, freeloading, cry babies who instead of taking a stand for what you believe in with your government it makes it easier to point fingers and say it's all the Americans fault. If you really want change GET OFF you ass and start taking action. And it seems to me that you are the puppets.
I think enough has been said on this subject. I am sorry a lot of innocent people are dying, but Hamas, the root of the problem, is hiding among civilians. If only israel and palestinians could agree and have peace, that would be great but not in our lifetime I guess.
Obviously,there are alot of bloodthirsty people out there, just look at the degenerates who have posted here. Kill, kill kill. That's your solution to everything. Tell me somehing, do you actually believe that genocide is a good thing, that it works? Look, your stereotyped ideas about the people of the Mid east only feed more stupidity. For instance, you do know that not every Arab nation wants to destroy Israel, in fact two neighbors, Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel, Syria has been working with Turkey to get a deal done, and Saudi Arabia proposed normalizing relations if Israel pulled back to it's 1967 border and stop colonizing the West Bank! Don't say that Peace is hopeless it is not! For centuries, Europeans fought each other like savages over everything they could think of, religion, ethnicity, etc. It took 2 world wars to bring Europeans to their senses. Now we have the European Union, an idea people would have scarely believed 60 years ago. Things can also change in the Mid East but it will take courage and intellegent leadership (and the shredding of stereotypes) and it will take time, but IT CAN HAPPEN!
Anon 12:12am,
I hope you don't include me with the bloodthirsty types who are ignorant about the middle east. I am well aware that Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel...which is what makes it even harder to understand why the Palestinians don't make peace as well. Jordan of course dealt with their "Palestinian problem" many years ago by forcibly evicting them all from Jordan and forcing them all into refugee camps. If Israel tried today to do what Jordan did back then, the world would scream bloody murder...Jordan included. If the other Arab nations cared so much about the Palestinians, they would be spending every breath trying to convince them to make peace with Israel in return for their own country. Israel is not the party unwilling to make peace...
NW, you asked:
I know all that, but really now does it justify the killings of these innocent people. Answer me mimi, does it. Yes as a parent Obama spoke, what about the Palestinians? Arent they parents too? Or sorry maybe parents in Palestine are different than parents of Israel. Im not a parent but if I see my kids massacared like this, I will want revenge.
The answer is implicit: We (and Israel) are up against a terrorist organization which, in effect, is making involuntary suicides of the civilians and children who are unfortunate enough to be in the schools or live in the apartments chosen by Hamas to set up shop.
For the palestinians, the only way out is to refuse aid and comfort to the Hamas terrorists.
On a human level, I know that may be a suicidal move in and of itself. These poor people are got iin a vise: dead if they resist Hamas, and dead if they don't.
These Hamas 'leaders' are so enchanted by overdosing on their own hubris they're not going to budge. After all, they're big shots now, in their inner circles of killers.
mimi
"...not to try to re-write anything. You have your opinion about why the war happened, and others are free to differ...."
ROFLMAO...
"Powell's speech, delivered on February 5, 2003, made the case for the war by presenting U.S. intelligence that purported to prove that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Wilkerson says the information in Powell's presentation initially came from a document he described as "sort of a Chinese menu" that was provided by the White House."
No wonder the World looks at the U.S. as a gong show.
Tex said:"it even harder to understand why the Palestinians don't make peace as well".
Are you crazy?
do you think that peace is in the hand of a ppl under occupation.
The UN has clear resolutions demanding that isreal withdraw from occupied palestine. peace is in isreals hand once they implement UN resolutions.
Anon. wrote:
..If I recall there were several countries in the UN who also believed there were WMD's..
Sorry, your recall is faulty
...why Americans think your people are whining, freeloading, cry babies...
LOL, sounds like the same mentality of short sightedness and generalization that got Bush elected twice, I'm not Arab or Muslim, how's the economy going for yah?
Your little history lesson is lacking to say the least.
Victory in the European theater came after an almost utter destruction, whole cities were bombed to dust and the enemies ability to wage war was destroyed. Millions were killed and even after occupation more were shot on site.
Lets hope the people of the ME know their history better than you.
Anon 1:03,
Israel pulled out of the west bank and gaza. What did it get them? Relatively stable relations with Fatah in the west bank and a hail of rocket fire from Hamas in Gaza. If Israel stops shooting, Hamas doesn't. If Hamas stops shooting, Israel will. Therefore, the key to peace is in the hands of Hamas. Israel is fully willing to accept a Gaza Strip ruled by Hamas, so long as Hamas is willing to recognize Israel's right to exist free from daily rocket barrages. You can throw as many UN resolutions around as you want, but we live in the real world, not some abstract debating club. In the real world, when somebody comes at you every day and punches you in the nose, you are eventually going to decide to punch them back. If your punch is far more effective than theirs and bloodies their nose, is that your fault? Or theirs?
What a surprise, Hamas purposely drawing fire to a UN school, to kill it's own children so it can use their corpses for propaganda. Who said Hamas was a terrorist organization. Your crazy, they're pious Muslims that want peace from the evil Jooos.
do you think that peace is in the hand of a ppl under occupation.
Of course it is. Who else's hands would the decision whether or not to "resist" (whatever that means in the Arab world) be in? The occupying power has certain legal responsibilities that Israel would have no choice but to accept (even the US couldn't support Israel if it didn't) - but all that is meaningless when the occupying power is under attack from the people being occupied.
This is pretty far off topic, but it's a pretty wild idea to suggest that Israel is responsible for Hamas (or any other terror group) attacks on... Israel. It makes no sense at all, and with that kind of attitude there will never be peace in the middle east.
By the way, whose "hand" was peace in, in Iraq? George Bush's? We saw all saw what peace George Bush was able to create in Iraq. When people want to fight and kill, they do. When they don't, they don't. It's just that simple.
The UN has clear resolutions demanding that isreal withdraw from occupied palestine.
I find that hard to believe, since by the UN's own laws Israel cannot withdraw from occupied territory until there is a sovereign power to replace it. Is there any slight chance that you may have interpreted some UN resolutions? :o
when isreal withdrew from Gaza it sealed off its borders, nothing and no one comes in or goes out, leaving 2 million ppl in an open air prison, trapped in a cage.
Some coments seem to suggest that isreal has endured a blitzkrieg of sorts. update: hamas home made primitive rockets have killed 20 ppl in the last eight years, all of whom are in small outpost settlements.
we should not ignore the historical context of how isreal was established by bringing in millions of european, russian and eastern jews from the world over, kicking palestinians out of their homes, hence creating the largest refugee problem the world has seen (70% of ppl living in Gaza are refugees whose homes were in israel).
from the jungles we hear something: "Venezuela expels Israeli ambassador over Gaza"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_israel
Anon........
"...we should not ignore the historical context of how isreal was established by bringing in millions of european, russian and eastern jews from the world over, kicking palestinians out of their homes, hence creating the largest refugee problem the world has seen (70% of ppl living in Gaza are refugees whose homes were in israel)."
You're hiding your hate and I can see it. Who are the Palestinians? It was a name given to Israel by Rome after they EXPELLED them from the land (known as the Diaspora). It's based on a Latin word for crying out loud! And that wasn't the first time they were expelled or occupied. The Babylonians(Iraq), Persians(Iran), Greece, Turks (Ottomans) all "occupied" the Jewish homeland at one time. Not trying to get into "who was there first" thing but you Anti-Semetics always focus on "1967" (which by the way if you want the boarders back to 1967 the Sinai was still Israels then) or "occupiers" or "Palistinian refugees" and anything else that takes the focus away from the fact that if the Jews were expelled from Israel hundreds & thousands of years of ago,then that means THEY (the Jews) WERE THERE! Where were the Palestinians? Palestinians are really Arabs living in Israel. Why can't they just love life, live with other kinds of people(like Jews), go out to eat, work, have sex, drink wine and love God? Because like you....they hate. And for dumb reasons. They weren't even there first.
Looks like most of you are brain dead. Learn to read a wide variety of sources from many different regions and most of all think on your own! Do not believe all the propaganda; that’s how the Timothy McVeigh’s are created. I recommend you go to the Avalon project http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/mideast.asp and read the actual historical documents and make up you own minds. For the few of you that seem to have brains answer these questions: What does a black flag mean to an Israel soldier? HINT it has been determined by the Israel military that shooting unarmed old men and young boys in the Back is not very nice and not to be done, they need special training to know this. What was the USS Liberty and how nicely did Israel treat her very best ally? Who was Count Folke Bernadotte and what terrorist group murdered him and almost murder a future US noble prize winner? LIFE IS TO SHORT TO BE SO STUPID PEOPLE
This seems like the wrong thread for people to be propagandizing in. This is the thread where everyone is supposed to pretend they want peace.
The answer was support.
we should not ignore the historical context of how isreal was established by bringing in millions of european, russian and eastern jews from the world over, kicking palestinians out of their homes, hence creating the largest refugee problem the world has seen (70% of ppl living in Gaza are refugees whose homes were in israel).
Are you really sure you want to discuss historical context? It doesn't suit your propaganda very well to do so. All of the lands the "Palestinians" now want back were theirs in 1948. But that wasn't enough. They wanted to kick the jews out and take ALL the land for themselves. So they launched a war on Israel...and got their asses handed to them. The "Palestinians" launched a war of aggression against Israel and lost their own territory in the process. They have spent the last 60 years trying to get back what could have been theirs to begin with if they had just left Israel alone.
And even now, Israel would give 90+% of it back to them IF they would just leave Israel alone. But that isn't enough for Hamas...Hamas wants the destruction of Israel...nothing less. So who is being unreasonable again?
Tex,
I'm sorry to say that you are wasting your words on the Anon coward. He obviously believes his opinions are the only ones that should be heard. He is right and you are wrong if you do not agree with him. His agenda is to insult anyone who may disagree with him (especially if you are an American). This blog is his vice for his "little man syndrome". this is the place where he can bully others without getting his ass kicked.
it is very easy to throw insults when you ve nothing to say.
what hurts me is that in the last week while a civilian ppl under occupation is being bombed with a third of the 600 dead being children, and still not only do u show no compassion but cheer for an agressor and an occupier.
What is the percentage of civilian dead in Iraq, previous anonymous? 99%? More? If you weren't anonymous, I could ask you to direct me to your comments where you expressed your outrage about that.
Anonymous said...
it is very easy to throw insults when you ve nothing to say.
what hurts me is that in the last week while a civilian ppl under occupation is being bombed with a third of the 600 dead being children, and still not only do u show no compassion but cheer for an agressor and an occupier.
If I have nothing to say than why are you reading my comments? And when did I cheer for the agressor? We have a saying "if you can't take it then don't dish it out. You do nothing but throw insults at anyone who does not agree with your views, 99% of your comments are filled with hatred and insults so I doubt very seriously that you are hurt by anything except having your ego put in check.
Neurotica, thanks for your post. Thanks for your 'human' spirit. You are right that all humans are one family and we need to treat each other like family.
I hope your friend's family is doing okay. Maybe you could write them a kind note in your immutable positive cheerful voice . . . to bring them some solace and light.
Here is a question for you:
Is there a comparison between the Israeli operation in Gaza and PM Malili sending the Iraqi Army and Iraqi National Police into Basrah in March/April 2008? The IDF killed Gazan civilians. The IA killed Basraian civilians. Were both operations equally unjustified, equally justified or differentially justified?
This question is for Neurotica and the rest.
There you go Neurotica, now you can write a new post on the value of Arab lives..I would guess they are not worth much, to Arabs.
Hamas is still taking action against Fatah affiliates and is willing to take all measures in order to swipe at them. For instance, this week a 70-year-old elderly man was shot to death when he refused to disclose the location of his son, a Fatah operative.
Y Net
Neurotica, as you might know Hamas backed Zarkawi--the great Iraqi killer--in 2006.
I, like you have criticisms of Israel. I don't understand what Israel's plan for a long term solution is. I don't understand why Israel builds segregated gated community settlements in the West bank. Anyone should be able to buy or rent homes any where in the West Bank for the same price. There should be no discrimination in the West Bank on the basis of race, ethnicity or faith in my opinion.
What are your thoughts Neurotica?
Awwww, Anon, having a bad day? Playing the American victim still? And love the ''getting his ass kicked'', I guess when your spewing falsehoods around and someone calls you on it, that is all you have left. But really like the American victim mentality you have.
It's kind of hard to take someone's trash talking seriously when their name is Anonymous........
Very true Julie...but using "terrorist sympathizer" as a name for his posts wouldn't come off very well in the propaganda war.
we are all commenting anonymously even if you are doing it under a pen name, i dont have a blog/gmail account. the topic is gaza, why change it to personal attacks?
palestine is a problem we ve inherited from our fathers, its been going on for 50 years. Im sure none of us would want to pass it to our children. I prefer a compromise solution by implementing UN resolutions and international court rulings. whats yours?
Been reading your blog since the beginning. Just want to say you are such a courageous gal, and unlike some allow everyone to voice their opinions. You really started a shit storm on this post. Thanks for giving this bored housewife interesting reading.
It so "courageous" being on the side of terroists. Congrats!
I think it would be sooooo courageous if the Massachusett Indians started launching rockets on Boston. After all they've been "occupied" for 350 years!
Neurotica, I've been following your blog since you were a newlywed. At the time, I had a boyfriend who was in the army and was part of the first deployment to Iraq. Through searching the net for information related to the war, I stumbled upon what has become my favorite blog. This blog is probably the best thing that came of that relationship, lol.
Thank you for continuing to post after all of these years! You continue to delight us with your views, even if we don't always completely agree. My favorite posts are of Hubby!
Now, onto this subject...
I applaud you all for your hopes that there will be peace, that the innocent stop dying, that the issue can be resolved. Realize that these attacks from both sides are inevitable.
How can two groups of people with different Gods, who both believe the land belongs to them (in fact it belongs to BOTH!), who (not-so) secretly hate each other, ever coexist under one "nation"?????
It is never going to happen.
Only a miracle will refute the statement above.
I will leave you all with this...
"I was here first." "Well you left, now it's mine."
Can they ever share?
-Pie
If destroying the Zionist state will save lives then let it go to hell. Also we need to think about what will replace it. Otherwise why not let the new US President supply Palestinians with proper tanks and F16's so that it becomes a balanced war. Honestly, how more biased can it get?!!!!
See, Neurotica? BuJ isn't even Palestinian, and he not only wants war, he wants genocide. And he's proud of it. How can there be peace with people like him? Do you expect the Israelis to seek peace with somebody who wants to finish what Hitler started?
BuJ,
Otherwise why not let the new US President supply Palestinians with proper tanks and F16's so that it becomes a balanced war.
It is alraedy grossly imbalanced, in favor of Arabs, and it has been for quite some time. Do you have any idea how much advanced weaponry is gathering dust in Arab armories? The Saudis alone possess more than enough military equipment to match Israel on the battlefield. If all else was equal. The problem is, all else is NOT equal. Arab soldiers are not teh equal of Israeli soldiers. That's been demonstrated several times in the last 60 years, although the Egyptians made a pretty good effort in 1973.
If you want to change that, BuJ, then I suggest you join the military in whatever Arab country you come from and show them how it is done. Show them how a real man fights.
Your comments are pathetic. Arabs took on Israelis in REAL wars, on a level playing field, with comparable equipment, and lost... how many times, BuJ? And after those failures, Arab turned to terrorism instead of conventional warfare. And now, here comes BuJ, to claim that the only reasons that Arabs can't win is because they are using terrorism instead of taking to the field in tanks and jets. And he asks for the US to send Arabs more tanks and jets. How many tanks and jets do you want? How many would make it fair? Do you have any idea how many M1 tanks, Apache helicopters and F16 fighter jets the US has already sold to Arabs? How many more would be enough? Do let us know, I'm sure that if you promised (really, really promised, for sure very very very seriously!) the next war would be the LAST one, we would be willing to accommodate you.
NIW,
It is interesting to see in the small handfull of posts here, just how difficult it would be to get two groups (two very different governments, two very different religions)to get along with each other.
I wish you solace in your time of pain and heartache.
Always,
Melanie
You are both right Pie and Melanie, even here in this virtual world, the 2 groups dont believe in peace, so how can we expect people on the ground to want it???
PG, Buj has a good point in saying it should be a fair war. As I mentioned in my post, the images we see in the Arab world are by far different than what you guys see in the West. If a war should happen, in any place on this earth then I believe both parties should have the same level of weaponry. Its only fair dont you think? Just this second as Im writing this, IM listening to the news and theyre saying that Times Newspaper found that Israel have been using Phosphorus weapons that have dire consequences. PG, do u think thats fair? Again IM gonna use Iraq as an example, Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurds, the whole world were appalled. Dont the Palestinians deserve the same reaction?
To be honest I didnt really want to comment anymore simply because there is no point. I want peace, I believe in the preciousness of human life. ALL human life. But thats wishful thinking. To me Hamas is just as bad as the Israeli government. They are selfish and their agenda is by far more important to them than their own people. Exactly like Saddam and the current govt we have in Iraq. The only respect I have for the US and Israel is they actually give a damn about their own people and protect them in anyway possible. I cant say the same for the majority of the Arab world. A few katyousha's hit the south of Israel that frightened a few people and all hell broke loose with now nearly 800 Palestinians killed and 3000 injured. Only consolation really is those killed are now martyrs the best degree of heaven.
Whether people agree with me or not is not the point here. How can we stop the massacres thats what is important right now. Im leaving it at that.
To be honest I didnt really want to comment anymore simply because there is no point.
OK. I feel the same way, and I'm not going to comment anymore either. Just for your own info, White Phosphorous is a smoke munition. Not a chemical weapon. This is the same scandal that some people tried to start about Falluja. I've walked through white phosphorous clouds myself dozens of times, and I'm here to testify that the smoke is not toxic. I don't know why people try to create hysteria with things like this, but it seems they always do :(
Craig is correct about phosphorous. I believe Hamas uses phosphorous too (as do many countries.) Using Phosphorous for lighting and smoke is legal under international law.
Neurotica I commend your sentiments: "Whether people agree with me or not is not the point here. How can we stop the massacres thats what is important right now. Im leaving it at that."
إلى الأخت الفاضلة "الزوجة العراقية نيرتيكا"
الله يرحم صديقتك المتوفية في غزة واللهم ألهم أهلها وذويها الصبر والسلوان.
ما عليكي من المبرمج كريج، أنا عندي إحساس أنه مختل عقلياً ويجب عليه مراجعة أقرب طبيب نفسي وتجنب الإنترنت. لقد عزمت على أن لا أرد عليه لأنه ليس أهلاً بالثقة ولا بالإحترام.
شكراً دائماً على كتابتك الرائعة.. مع تحياتي بجسم من دبي
Neurotica,
There is an old saying in the military:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you haven't planned it well enough."
WWI was a very even fight, with both sides armed almost evenly...and it was horrific. Hundreds of thousands of men died fighting over a few hundred yards between this trench and that trench. Neurotica, wars don't end until either one side wins or both sides reach the point where they recognize the futility of continuing to fight.
This is just my opinion, and I recognize that you are unlikely to share it. But since for at least the last decade, Israel has recognized the futility of fighting. They have been abandoning settlements, withdrawing from occupied lands, giving the palestinians increased control and governing ability over their own lands, etc. Rather than recognizing the futility of continuing to fight and trying to live in Peace, Hamas has seen those steps as signs of weakness and has continued to attack Israel.
Do you honestly believe that if they were given tanks and howitzers and jets with guided munitions, that Hamas would stop hiding behind civilians and would strive to only attack Israeli military targets? If you believe that, why? Their charter calls for extermination of the jews and the destruction of all of Israel. Hamas doesn't just want to kill jews in uniform, they want to kill ALL of the jews. They don't just want to take back the occupied lands taken in 1967 or 73, they want ALL of Israel for themselves. Hamas has made its name on DELIBERATELY attacking civilians. They have repeatedly sent suicide bombers to target crowded civilian areas with no possible military value.
So if your stated goal is to stop the massacre of civilians, what is the point of better arming the one side in the battle that you already know has no qualms about, and in fact has shown a great lust for killing civilians?
My opinion is that since there is little likelihood of Hamas ever recognizing the futility of continuing to fight and willingly accepting peace with Israel, the only other way to end the conflict is for one side to win...and that is what Israel is trying to do. trying to make it a "fair fight" will only delay achieving that and will bring about thousands upon thousands of additional civilian casualties in the process.
Tex,
I respect you and from what you write you seem quite balanced and reasonable, but please let me address some of the things you mentioned in your last comment to NIW.
I think always of Israel as the aggressor and not the victim. I think you disagree with this but unfortunately most Muslims and Arabs will somehow think along my lines. You see, Israel was established on mainly Arab land taken by force, so naturally there will be a resistant movement to resist this. Hamas is one such movement. I am not pro-Hamas at all, but my enemy's enemy is my friend. I do not support the killing of innocent Jews, nor do I support suicide bombings or terror. I would like us to have a damn strong army as a deterrent then to sort everything through negotiations. Honestly, peace talks only work when both sides have something to lose.
Bombing 10 innocent Gazan kids to kill one Hamas guy is wrong. Bombing a busy nightclub full of innocent Israelis is also wrong. Honestly, I see both as equal evils but in different garb.
I'm an idealist, and am a big fan of the hated one-state solution. Don't destroy Israel but modify it and rename it so that Jew and Arab can have equal rights and everyone has the freedom to practise whatever religion they want. I've seen mosques and synagogues on the same street in London with no police or IDF protection. If they can do it in europe then they can do it in the Holy Land.
Honestly, keep religion out of it. Give people security and peace and you'll find there is a lot of land for everyone. Do you think this is something Israel would consider as a reasonable compromise?
BuJassem, why did Hamas back the Takfiri Zarkawi in 2006?
Do you think Hamas really wants a one state solution? A one state solution is a marriage with Israel. Marriages are hard work. Palestinians and Israelis will have to learn to understand, empathize with, get along with and like each other. This won't be easy.
There is only one forming strong Arab army . . . the Iraqi Army. BuJassem, do you think the Iraqi Army should help Palestine? Who do you think should train and equip the Palestinian army? The Iraqi Army? Who should pay for it? Palestine is very poor and collects little tax revenue. Most government spending is funded by foreign grants (EU, US, Gulf Arab, Japan, Israel other countries.)
I have some questions that some of you might be able to answer.
Is Bernard-Henri Levy's article accurate? He claims that the Israelis are trying not to harm civilians.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe
Michael Totten quotes the following: "For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have."
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/01/peace-at-the-sm.php
Is this true?
Anand, I don't get why people just write anything without reading what I wrote first!!!
I do not support Hamas, and argue that Hamas is the effect of Israel.. after all Israel came first.. eh?
Plus I want peace and I want a religion-free state..
i'm prepared to go for marriage counseling rather than a costly divorce!
"i'm prepared to go for marriage counseling rather than a costly divorce!" Ha Ha! Nicely said. I think you would really try to make your marriage with Israel work if you were a Palestinian. I hope most Palestinians feel likewise. (Many no doubt do, but I don't know if a majority feel that way.)
I know you don't support Hamas BuJassem. I enjoyed reading your 'thoughtful' comments. I am trying to understand why Hamas backed Zarkawi. I don't know the answer to this question.
BuJassen, Israel helped create and strengthen Hamas in the 1960 and 1970s. So Israel "IS" partly responsible for Hamas.
I don't know the answers to the questions I posed; that is why I asked them. :-)
I think a big part of all of this is that everybody (myself included) equates all Palestinians with Hamas. That is the problem with allowing terrorist groups to also have a political wing that participates in elections. How can you separate the two? If they share the same name, and their leadership works together, how can you assume that one doesn't support and agree with what the other does? The other side to that is that groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are so powerful, well-armed, and willing to resort to violence against any who oppose them...how do you keep them from being a part of the process? That is why it is so important to the outside world to see groups like Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed and/or defeated if they refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist. You simply can't negotiate with the political wing of Hamas while ignoring that the terrorist wing is plotting to blow up large groups of civilians any way they can.
I appreciate what you say Bujassem, and I recognize that we approach this conflict from very different points of view. I recognize that both sides have legitimate grievances with the actions of the other over the last 60 years. However, in order for there to be peace, there has to be forgiveness. In order for there to be forgiveness, both sides have to want to forget the past and move on with the future. That simply cannot occur with armed men running around advocating a shared dedication to the destruction of another group based on their religion. I have seen plenty of signs that Israel would welcome a lasting peace with the Palestinians. Has Israel been perfect in trying to bring that about? No...far from it. But I have seen no similar signs from Hamas that they would be willing to accept a long term peace that included the continued existence of Israel. As long as Hamas is the acting government for the Palestinians...it would seem that peace is impossible.
Those people that like to call WP a chemical weapon, those people are the enemies of humanity.
The mighty defenders of Gaza
Hi TEX, I see what you mean, and you have a valid point. I agree that given the current position of Hamas and Israel things will not get better.
The facts are that Israel is in a dominant position but people like Hamas although are weak compared to the might of the IDF, they can really dissolve any notion of peace between Arab and Jew.
I'd like to see both sides take concrete steps towards peace but if you've got the upper hand then you're less likely to compromise.
What's happening in Gaza
If your unsure about the Israeli actions in Gaza, just think about their last war with Hizbollah. Where is Hizbollah today, do they dare fire rockets, or come to the rescue of Hamas, would they open a new front and try to split the Israeli front. No? Why not? Could it be the "cease fire" they signed, or did they learn their lessons, for now.
You know you kill off enough of the suicidal element, and maybe you can work with those left alive.
I do not see many other options.
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i do think that life is cheap. dont you know that when you hit someone during driving and that person lives? you know how much it cost rather than killing the man when you hit them.
when you hit them and they lives you cost thousands just to get them fix, hospital bills, medication, etc.
when you kill them you only pay for there funerals.
To all mens fashion lovers out there READ my blog on where to buy the clothing at a reasonable price!
Read More!
1. Where to buy tuxedo PART 1
2. Where to buy tuxedo PART 2
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